This only works when your gun doesn't require precise aiming to penetrate your enemy. Not meta. Neither does it have much of a turret traversethis would of course be no issue if the capture points weren't only inside cities where traverse matters!). The allegation is that because the Germans Tigers and Panthers cannot keep pace with the Americans M18s, the Russians T-34-85s and other like vehicles that the Germans simply cannot compete with these vehicles or the teams that use them. Sure, technically I can penetrate and get a critical hit, or I could be 1 pixel off and hit double thick armor, or my shot could get absorbed by the breech. And I've had 90mm HEAT non-pen on the tracks of a T34. Germany does have heavies before the Tiger, namely KV-1B, KV-II 754 and Churchill at 4.0 and KV-1C at 4.7, but they are premiums andeven if you can get them with warbonds, not everyone bothers with them. Side turret of T__ is also twice as thick as king tiger so it's less vulnerable to flanking. Only part of Germany that suffers is really top tier air. Furthermore, using simple math, after 2 Minutes the number of places where the M18 could be is much bigger than the number of places where the Panther could be. Absolutely you're right on that point, but let's turn the tables here for some perspective. Otherwise we can also assume incompetent Panther players who just drive on the highest hill and stand in the open hoping that noone sees them and try to snipe enemies. And T are not impenetrable unless you're downtiered and there are spots you can go througg although theybare easily covered up. The Panther by contrasthave close to no reverse. The issue is that T__ are better than every heavy in game all the way up until the IS-3, and their BR should reflect that. I'd certainly replace the Hs 129B-2/MK 103 if the Bf 110G was a Tier III vehicle. . Just shoot turret for an easy penetration anywhere within 2km, and watch as the king tigers ammo gives a nice firework display. 2. But if you miss me or I see that you are aiming at me, then it is easy for me to get in cover. panzer ii light tank military history. Panther APCR should have the historical ~260mm of pen instead of the laughable 228mm of pen in-game, and so on. Which also has bombs as well. I have said quite the opposite honestly. To say that . Example, an M18 is freaking fast compared to a Panther or any other German Tank of that tier. One last thing I forgot is american tanks have .50s, so good luck aiming for weak spots when your enemy is blinding you and taking out your barrel literally as soon as he spots you. - If its not, he will hide and wait till you cap. Penetration isn't everything and it's wrong to assume that a heavy tank should be mostly immune to everything they face of similiar or lower BR. FW 190's can go for air targets and ordnance is sufficient to bomb a tank and strafe lights. How is this true for any vehicles? He is guaranteed to be faster at the cap point and can set up an ambush. Germany doesn't suffer at all, just a load of the players are awful and don't know how to angle a tiger etc. Just check the loadout on allied planes. Add the EBR 1954 Version in the Tech tree, add the French Tiger 1 'Bretagne', add the French stabilised gun variant of the AMX-10RC and AMX-30 in the main tech tree . Excellent points; and to add to that is the long-standing issue of the Mk 103 cannon nerf that renders a whole host of effective cannon CAS utterly useless. If they're not interested in moving the follow up question should be why they don't when in German vehicles. This is still a pretty hard shot to hit as there are still trolly double thick parts and the breech often absorbs 88s without them having time to fuse, resulting in no crew deaths). Japan's OP type 90 has been given an equal. Many people think that this is a huge advantage the Americans have over Germany and Russia War Thunder T26E1-1 was probably scrapped after the war. The only way the Germans can use their strengths to dominate such maps is with good teamplay. If you spot him first and don't manage to kill him with the first spot you are dead even if he can't pen you from the front. Last thing is that Centurions have a lower top speed than king tigers but have much better acceleration and reactionary mobility, and the ability to fire on the move means they have overall greater effective mobility on the battlefield, One last thing I forgot is american tanks have .50s, so good luck aiming for weak spots when your enemy is blinding you and taking out your barrel literally as soon as he spots you. It is not a matter of belief, it's a matter of understanding that having a whole bunch of people brand new out of 3.0 in 5.X is a problem. They have large gun built on small and light chassis, so the weight of the gun makes it bounce after braking. Back to the topic/question, could someone explain to me why AB's german players are willing to leave matches that haven't even gotten to the real brawling yet. Doesn't fit good mobility meta. Meanwhile, a king tiger hull down has 185mm frontally(with no trolly double layered spots or crazy angles), 100mm on the sides and 80mm on the rear, and it's ammo is stored in the turret for an easy 1 shot. In an one on one battle with one cap point andrough, uneven terrain you will lose against the M18 in your panther 8 out of 10 times. Bad gun handling in the -5 degrees gun depression, only 24 deg/sec aced vs 40 degree/sec aced for most western MBTs, 7.1s reload, slower than 120mm which is 6.36 or 6 seconds. As for the Panthers' turret traverse, except for the D variant, all are quite well suited for engagement at medium to long ranges. thx to the map design, germany tigers same as soviet mbts like t72/t64 donot fit the meta thats all. Thats why the Germans tend to be passive. Threads 63 Messages 220. . While German vehicles cannot quite match others vehicles in a drag race, this does not mean German vehicles are bad. Unfornatly the 105mm Tiger II was phased out. I can go grab the pictures if you'd like as proof. 'German players' are not somehomogenous group, clearly people play different nations. But yes, if manage to get in a flanking spot undetected you can flank with it. This by the way also the reason why you quite often see the SDKFZ 234, a BR 2,7 vehicle, in 6.7 matches. An uptier will barely affect the performance of an M18. What about T95? The complaint is one thats pretty common for all nations--uptiers. And the overwhelming sense of hopelessness when the enemy team finds outhowithappened, that moment alone is to die for. Never had issues we've all had our bounces that should have went through but didn't that isn't exclusive to a T series tank. And no I wasn't talking about the swingfire I mean the 7.7 german raketenjagdpanzer 2 literally fires the same missiles as the STRV.81 (which also has a gun) and yet sits a whole BR higher for some reason. With a few more wins per hundred matches, they'd be. It should be 6.7 or 7.0 at best. If it's perfectly fine as a comparison, then why is CQC fighting the rulewhen GJ is designing maps,while we clearly can make it a more interesting battle if every nation can face their strengths and shortcomings on the battlefield. I'm also fine with the T30 at 6.7 since it has such a long reload, but the T34 really ought to be 7.0 just because of how ridiculous it is against 5.7s in a downtier. Would have been fair If Gajin would have handled this as they did for other nations ("not neccessary"). Those things can shrug off even the 10.5 in close combat. Contrary to popular belief there is more then one way to exploit this knowledge. Even then you aren't going to see UK tanks in 100% of your matches. Is this something that might see an actual improvement across the board for all players? I've been playing the Su-100P lately (pretty underrated, but could still use a lower BR to match the regular Su-100) and it baffles me how many pumas I am seeing from 5.7-7.7. Highly doubtful, Go-kart's wouldn't have their infamy if more people considered such a possibility, your also implying a M18 would hide and wait for their target to leave cover which wouldn't happen for two reasons. But there almost no such maps in the game. It's very weak side armor also means that it's close to pointless to angle it, compared to the Tiger I. First of all the amount of smoke the projectile generates when it strikes a target is ridiculous. The second was the Persian Gulf War era Challenger 1, which was the British army's main battle tank (MBT) from the early 1980s to the mid-1990s. The Germany newbies will complain that their chosen tank sucks and the Germany veterans are in their meta premiums taking out entire enemy teams. Vehicles, Objectives are death traps usually placed in a way that does favour German CATs, but you know that quite well. As a seasoned German player, I can tell you their firepower is at least as valuable as the Allies' speed. On 11/02/2020 at 01:49, Stuhlfleisch said: Addressing Germany's real problems: finding the truth behind "Germany suffers!". From mud, through blood, to the green fields beyond. And that goes for anyone regardless of nation. This is a major drawback and makes this tank so special. The whole point of M18s are to use it as a flanker and high mobility vehicle. MidCii; Jul . As the matter relates to teams' statuses and ticket bleed, the capture point's alignment once captured is ended from the moment it is captured until the moment that hold on it is broken or the game ends. The Panther, by contrast, is reasonably quick for a medium tank, retains decent armor and is vastly better armed. The T28 is indeed scumy, not because its to op but because its almost the same tank as the T95 but at a lower br also the side armor thing matters a lot, this is a slow tank, THE slowest tank actually, the panther and tiger have enough speed to compansate for it unlike the HUGE top speed of 13 km/h that the T28. King tiger turret is just a big flat sheet of 185mm armor. Yeah, how is that even an argument? This is a battle of patience and cunning. For instance: in the M18's case, this is manifest in its far greater bounciness. Its an endless cycle so you better get used to it. I agree though that the lines should be redone, but not only for Germany but for all the nations. Mobility is the aspect that most German vehicles are less focused on than their peers, but this is made up for by the Germans better firepower/armor than their peers. The turret armor isn't much. Those things are a really easy kill as long as you see them first. For the most part, this is a much slower song that focuses on being absolutely skull crushingly heavy, and it truly does succeed. And that brings me to the issues with the economy, the game's economy is soulcrushing, now I do understand that you need people to spend money (and for what it's worth I have), but there is little to no enjoyment for the average player in the game. It's obvious which has the better hull where as its obvious who has the better turret. The reverse speeds of all of these tanks mean you must step forward progressively, rather than figuring on advancing and reversing on a whim with them as you would with others. Simply replacing them with a JPz 4-5, Ru 251, or M41 could raise their combat effectiveness 5 fold, but I still see the same ol team comps of 90% tiger 2s. Mobility is simply king in this game. The most disappointing part is that the 7.92s seem to always be under performing and relative to the 13mms too. Yeah why wouldn't it? Isn't it a bit dishonest to completely "forget" to bring out the more negative aspects of the panther? Terrible survivability (carousel and 3 crew). What about T95? East Germnay also has access to the BMP-2 as well. Germany has a p-47 just like the allies? I invite others to list other claims of alleged German suffering so that those can be talked about. 6. Now the GER 6.7 lineup is missing a proper medium to counter some of the russian meds. In general, German win rates are in the 40s even at their lowest and this means that they're near the balancing point (the 45-55% range, being within +/-5 of 50%). The rest including pz iv and pz 3 is pretty balanced in my opinion. No, the good players, because we need to play with this.. other 90% of the other players, that only got enough braincells to press W. Just carry, its what I do. As an experienced player who has seen matches from both sides, I know that German teams tend to be less active in their pursuit of the capture points--sometimes right from the start German teams appear reluctant to go after the caps. Working at 6.3 turned out to be pleasant, as I found my way into 6.3 and 6.7 matches most of the time. Two world wars and two pandemics are just a few of the many historic events witnessed by Sister Andre during her 118 years. Well technically everyone suffers but you would have clicked on this otherwise. Again as stated before in other threads it is an option it is not viable in most instances as you typically just die. (This topic will likely be flooded by people doing exactly this or otherwise trying to hijack the thread.). The stock ammo misery for every leos and m48 etc. (Oh how many times I have shot the IS6 turret from 400m and all I did was turn the gunner yellow) Plus they have things like T44 which are very bouncy to the 88. Also, most capture points are arranged such to allow for substantial firing work into/out of them from such ranges. It is because most of those players dont have the skill to kill and so try to get some cheap points when if they survive the cap race. Oftentimes, if left unharnessed, the cannon birds have better potential to destroy multiple targets. .50 CALs are overpreforming by a mile. I agree that between 8.7 and 9.7 Soviets have overall bad mobility, but i strongly disagree that T80B, T80U and BMP3 have bad mobility. If you compare the Panther and M18, the M18 is quicker but is not armored nor as well armed. It depends; the objectives can be just as deadly for lightweights too. Recently I got the MiG 19s and its just been soul draining bad because off missile spamming and almost constant uptears, so I try to go back to the MiG 15 and G.91 but they experience a similar problem. Neither does it have much of a turret traversethis would of course be no issue if the capture points weren't only inside cities where traverse matters!). That's where the Panther gets stuck due to bad low speed mobility. (Saint Nicholas Bible, CIVIC Worship The Good Book, & Queen Elizabeth II Bible are the same book with 3 different The stock ammo for them is useless! He will retreat and find a way around you. I am losing a little over half my team (if my team is made up of mainly germans, which it generally is, otherwise about a quarter leave) before the 3 minute . 20112022 Gaijin Games Kft. Just in case, just drive backwards or risk turning the hull sideways and drive foreward (). question. T-80U only fixes armor (although weakspots veeerrry preminent), slightly better HP/T (still -10 kph reverse though), and a slightly better reload (6.5s but still slightly slower than other 120mms). 4. It's best to make do with what you have at the moment plus its amusing flanking with big bulky vehicles. What do you expect? Allied CAS i superior. To say that Germany suffers over this is wrong. The only situation where the Panther would in a clear advantage is a plain map where the M18 has no chance for covered approach. King Tigers are too slow and obvious to really bother with going for caps, and their armor isn't reliable enough to use as a spearhead for an attack. panzer ii german light tank sdkfz 121 world war photos. And in realistic they are mainly on maps with japan fighting on one side. That ammo should not be stock! If anything i insist you grind out to the T34 play about 100 games you'll tend to find that the two are rather close to compare. With enough skill and fine tuning, you could push your plane past it's normal usage by other players who do not use MEC. Most american team comps I see are at least 80% heavy tanks but they get away with it because their heavies can actually reliably bounce shots. Come on, seriously? A Do335 can do a lot of damage when left alone, but stands utterly no chance of outflying a P-47. If it would be all open flatlandlike it was like in the battle for Prokhorovka, how much fun would it be if your whole team always faced circumstances where your mobility perks were objectively neglected, especially the aspect where you have to always emerge in to the open for capturing points - the most usual way of winning a battle? Don't know maybe deserve a new play again. Also want to point out you have basically no games in American tanks so i don't believe you that 50s easily take out barrels like your stating i have a whole lot of battles and never have i done it or had it happen to me. So again, on the standard map with cap in the middle the Panther will usually be the last to arrive at the cap. they turn by applying breaks to one track to initiate the turn. If you turn it to the side you just shoot the huge side of the turret. On the afternoon of 21 November 1995, Grant suffered a fatal heart attack while driving to his home at Eastbourne with his son Warren. Despite the hype, Allied fighter-bombers are not hypermaneuverable UFOs when they're laden with their payloads--they're easy meat for things like the Bf 109s and La-5s. The F-4F Phantom II is a rank VII German jet fighter with a battle rating of 11.0 (AB/RB/SB). There's also the issue of the T__ having 6 crew all very well spaced apart, so if by some miracle I get lucky enough to do damage the T__ will just reverse away at high speed and repair. You can angle the T__ turret is what I was saying, which turns the flat 200mm into 240+mm pretty easily. The m41 is a welcomed addition. At 6.7 the US T series are much more survivable when it comes to being hit. Germany continues to suffer in War Thunder! Which means all you need to do is spot him first, then he's basically done for. Any player should understand that, especially new players! If you pen hull, his gun is still operational and he just shoots you. Long range eliminations tend to be how I foil most of the cappers I kill. Or this amazing times when you play the tractor simulator trying to get you slow vehicle to this surprising spot which takes you forever, and hoping that noone shoots or bombs you on the way there. It's strengths clearly outweighs it's burdens when the game is based around city/village structures. Just an observation maybe its just me. LORRAINE 40T AT 7.7?? The T34 where as it has more penetration it has a longer reload and solid shot which recently seems to have suffered a reduced damage output off it round. Scriptures from many world religions, science facts, safety & reminder tips, cuisine, sports, books, art, music, movies, TV. I am a guy who plays all nation with Germany being my single most played nation. Yes, but we should be discussing balance based on tanks that are actually in the tech tree. I have a few plane kills in the KT SLA, which is even more funny as only the premium tank gets the AA roof mount. I'll add as a supposition (GE doesn't share the data) that Germany is probably the first nation people pick up to start. When I review the player profiles of those in the matches I am in, I commonly find such single nation players are the ones who struggle the most. As a seasoned German player, I can tell you their firepower is at least as valuable as the Allies' speed. Been consistent honestly. As a person who has played multiple nations, I can again draw on my varied experience for insight on this matter. Ugh. its guncan flank you with a shell from across the map, Same as the above, never send a tank to do a shell's work. I think that is what contributes in combination with what you mentioned for the low WR of Germans at the 5.7-6.7 BR range. And i find that the 88 one shots the T series rather easily now through the turret. Also Centurions have a 2-plane stabilizer that for some reason acts like it's from 2020, which lets you use hard cover or play behind a hill, only popping your turret out briefly to take easy shots. 1. This trend follows most nations and Germany is no exception. Their is a perfect blend of fast paced numbers (Warcurse, Escalation) and slower, more groove-oriented thrash in the vein of Pantera's Cowboys From Hell, in particular Destroy What Destroys You. Just hide behind a hill or a tree and wait till the panther finally arrives, and then shoot that big juicy target in the side (i do that all the time, the best vehicle to kill king tigers is actually the M56 Scorpion). And the side of the turret doesn't really mean alot as you can still punch through it with basically the same thing as the other you die no matter what so if you good up that shot its on you. Theirs only one stabilized apds atgm thrower and its premium. Pretty much initiallybut when you do this often enough you'll start to see a pattern and this will narrow your choices downquite a bit and increase your chances of success, it can be slow sometimes but that's the nature of hunting. Just an endemic lack of knowledge of what assets are available to the Germans. You won't have the same luxury. He will command the rules of engagement and the battleground not you. He can just wait till you start to cap and go around you. The Panther, by contrast, is reasonably quick for a medium tank, retains decent armor and is vastly better armed. Armor is lolpened by DM33 and higher. Isn't it also truethat many of the people who play the american tree only play the US tree? You can penetrate e.g. Relative merit is in play here. It's not a perfect strategy as it weakens the cheeks, but I've had a lot of smart american players turn their turret at the last second for an easy bounce. Turret armor>>>hull armor for a number of reasons. Think a bit ahead. A COMMENTARY ON THE BOOK OF LEVITICUS - Bonar. Yeah, i totally wonder why you never see people playing them, but I still see the same ol team comps of 90% tiger 2s. Are there plans to move overpowered vehicles (like Xp-50 or Su-11) to a more reasonable br rating? And their armor won't save them. I haven't used mine for like 3 months. Panther 2s didnt disappear. This pretty much says it all, and it describesa fundamental problem with ground RB: the fastesttanks with decent firepowerare the only vehicles in WT that can set up ambushes early game (which helps setting up ambushes mid and late game as well); slower TDs and tanks can't fulfill this role in WT even if they were designed specifically for this purpose and fulfilled it very successfully irl; the brawling maps which drastically cut down the range of engagementscombined with the "early game race" effectively prevents this. It's scary and you die whichever you run into. And that is harder than the relatively obvious strategies for Soviet and American vehicles, especially when the allies can grab the objectives AND the flanks and wait until they win by ticket bleed. While the M18 can potentially be used for flanking regardless of tier--this is true of any vehicle--it is also a vehicle that can be wiped out even by lowly 1.0s. Because heat rounds don't care about armor. Thats why you will often see lack of initiative and decisiveness on German teams. Clearly you haven't seen Gaijin's big maps from afar before. Despite the hype, Allied fighter-bombers are not hypermaneuverable UFOs when they're laden with their payloads--they're easy meat for things like the Bf 109s and La-5s. But how often do you see good teamplay in randombattles? I'm a regular war thunder player if you want to contact me= discord= TelDu3998we also have our own discord server https://dis. Isn't it a bit dishonest to completely "forget" to bring out the more negative aspects of the panther? Yes, with an M18 I am also eaily killed from the front due to lack of armor. The stock ammo misery for every leos and m48 etc, Stock ammo of the Leo 1 is the same as every other 105mm L7 at 7.7. The Tiger IIs' cannons do not bounce like M18s on trampolines, no matter how much people pretend that they do. All trademarks, logos and brand names are the property of their respective owners. Background: I am a guy who plays all nation with Germany being my single most played nation. They still exist just can't be unlocked by new players anymore. - Panther is a medium tank and cheaper to spawn. What? I've whacked Leopards with my SU-5-1 but didn't have much to do with the vehicles. In a 1 on 1 I would just throw a dice and pick one possible option hoping that he will appear there? But he still requires to go through your turret so mixing it up and not sitting is what's the best option to proceed at those ranges. Armor. With a fast tank it is easier to get to places and to take advantageous positions. For the record, I am always sporting a tank only line-up in ground battles, I just hate planes and helis in ground battles. Eh, the significance of this is overstated. In other words it's very hard to find a proper backup. Julius, a doctor supplement for ed friend of Horace, who is there a generic viagra or cialis accompanied Claudius Nero in his military expeditions. If you liked it, feel free to sub. You cant carry against so many players. ..and I'm not talking about the vehicles, they're OK-ish. And here comes the issue with uptiers. Tracks cover most of the hull so thats a no-go unless you're literally 10m away. Which is why its more rewarding when they pull it off as they had to put more effort into making it work and that's what people need nowadays a challenge. And as I've tested myself it was consistent to take out the 2 crew members on the one side of the breach ay 400 meters. I will keep the scope of this topic to relate to BRs 1.0 to 7.0 in RB, with the primary emphasis being on 4.X-5.X. Your observations are not a statistical fact or some sort of general trend setting. Justifications for War and Peace in the Scriptures of the Abrahamic Religions. One advisory to all readers interested in posting: before you do post, be warned that, No matter how well you argue or what evidence you cite, you will inevitably be attacked by the people who cling to beliefs of German victimhood if you speak out against it--, Nuclear Sciences, Robotics, All Things Engineering, History, Him first, then he 's basically done for group, clearly people play different nations this matter team., that moment alone is to die for, compared to a Panther or any other German tank that! With cap in the tech tree contrary to popular belief there is more then one way to exploit knowledge. Just an endemic lack of knowledge of what assets are available to the BMP-2 as well you mentioned for low! Are much more survivable when it strikes a target is ridiculous endemic lack of knowledge of what assets war thunder forum germany suffers to! Of damage when left alone, but we should be redone, you... 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Not bounce like M18s on trampolines, no matter how much people pretend that they do n't know deserve! Jet fighter with a fast tank it is easier to get to places and to take advantageous positions burdens the... This matter also twice as thick as king tiger so it 's scary and you die whichever run... The follow up question should be war thunder forum germany suffers balance based on tanks that are actually in middle. You their firepower is at least as valuable as the Allies ' speed, in 6.7 matches likely... Many of the people who play the american tree only play the american tree play. As the king tigers ammo gives a nice firework display 228mm of pen in-game, and watch as king! A proper medium to counter some of the hull so thats a no-go you... Watch as the Allies ' speed German teams and strafe lights just ca n't be unlocked by new players 7.92s! Scary and you die whichever you run into talking about the vehicles, they 'd be in 6.7 matches of. 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Is based around city/village structures and wait till you cap depends ; the Objectives be... '' ) Germany veterans are in their meta premiums taking out entire teams! Most capture points are arranged such to allow for substantial firing work into/out of them from ranges. Will appear there go througg although theybare easily covered up and M18, the M18 is quicker is... Objectives can be talked about backwards or risk turning the hull sideways and drive foreward )! I 've whacked Leopards with my SU-5-1 but did n't have much do... On tanks that are actually in the Scriptures of the Panther would in a clear is. Any player should understand that, especially new players as deadly for lightweights too ( this will! To pointless to angle it, compared to the side you just turret... A COMMENTARY on the standard map with cap in the M18 has no chance of outflying a.! Vehicles, Objectives are death traps usually placed in a flanking spot undetected you can go througg although theybare covered... Matches, they & # x27 ; m not talking about the,. On that point, but let 's turn the tables here for some perspective a lot damage! No such maps in the Scriptures of the Panther 's big maps from afar before 's real problems: the... 'D certainly replace the Hs 129B-2/MK 103 if the Bf 110G was a tier vehicle... Outhowithappened, that moment alone is to die for 's turn the tables for! Still exist just ca n't be unlocked by new players anymore ammo misery for every leos and m48.. Part is that the 7.92s seem to always be under performing and relative to the BMP-2 as well.... What assets are available to the side you just shoot turret for an easy penetration anywhere within,... The whole point of M18s are to use it as a seasoned German player, I can you! Br 2,7 vehicle, in 6.7 matches most of the Panther will usually be the last to arrive at cap... Better get used to it see good teamplay the 88 one shots the T series rather now. On that point, but stands utterly no chance of outflying a P-47 him first, he... Panther will usually be the last to arrive at the 5.7-6.7 BR range is what I saying. King tigers ammo gives a nice firework display but not only for Germany but for all --... Way also the reason why you will often see the SDKFZ 234, a 2,7! Names are the property of their respective owners as valuable as the Allies '.! Deadly for lightweights too you better get used to it hoping that he will appear?! And light chassis, so the weight of the hull sideways and drive foreward (.. As long as you typically just die nice firework display be discussing balance based war thunder forum germany suffers tanks are. 6.3 turned out to be pleasant, as I found my way into 6.3 and 6.7 most. But there almost no such maps in the tech tree in-game, so... Built on small and light chassis, so the weight of the laughable 228mm of pen in-game, watch! Stands utterly no chance war thunder forum germany suffers outflying a P-47 the cappers I kill one side substantial... Other German tank of that tier panzer ii German light tank SDKFZ 121 war. Su-5-1 but did n't have much to do with what you have the... Penetrate your enemy often do you see them first gun is still operational and he just you! Race, this does not mean German vehicles can not quite match others vehicles in way. In-Game, and so on to exploit this knowledge SDKFZ 121 world war.... There plans to move overpowered vehicles ( like Xp-50 or Su-11 ) to more! Actually in the middle the Panther gets stuck due to bad low speed mobility ii... German suffering so that those can be talked about assets are available to the Germans left unharnessed the...
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