Well, the kinsfolk, you can have relatives that dont know very much about you or misunderstand you. My point though was to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. She would have to have a heavenly body. So ultimately, weve seen this and I think whats important to remember all of this, that these dogmas do not take the place of Christ. The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. All it shows is that even though she was free from sin, she still had human nature, and human nature is corrupted and mortal. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. I would give this analogy to my protestant brothers and sisters. And my contention is that if Adam had not fallen and inherited original sin, he would not have died. I run morning podcasts here on locals. Thats all I got. Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967) [1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. They point us to Jesus Christ. Rather, this is Mary simply being obedient to the law just as Jesus submitted himself to baptism for the sake of all righteousness. And I also have a video about seven popes, and possibly eight popes, that did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. And the fact that Trent is saying that the holy family would not need to apply to that, hes imputing his Catholic theology into the text. It can mean half-sister, stepsister, sister-in-law.. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. So my quick mini rebuttal. For forty years he has been a fixture in the firmament of the apologetic pantheon, lecturing worldwide and publishing popular books like The End of Reason and Jesus Among Other Gods. Yet the presence of those exceptions doesnt disprove the nearly universal truth the sacred author was affirming. I dont have a problem with the word a adelphos, that was never my argument. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. And then Steve, what are some objections you hear from Protestants to Catholics that you dont think are good? When the New Testament writers wish to convey female non-sibling relatives, such as Elizabeth and Mary, they chose other Greek words, such as [foreign language 00:01:39] or [foreign language 00:01:39] So also, Luke 14:12 and 21:16, where the evangelist uses different Greek words to distinguish relatives from brothers. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis- Garret Talks To Steve Christie About His Endorsements, Pima County Voting. So the idea that its fitting that Mary be immaculately conceived, it pushes the dial a little, but its by no means a proof. The immaculate conception, should we dogmatize should we not?, It is going to go back to what you believe about the authority of the Magisterium. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. While the wages of sin is death refers to spiritual death, that is the second death. Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. And again, scripture states, Because Jesus is God is why he would not inherit sin like Mary did, because Mary is not God, unless Trent is going in that direction, which I dont think it is. It may be used this way in Acts 25:21 to say that Paul was held in custody until he was sent to Rome, even though he was still in Roman custody after that point. Of course, that is not what we are debating today. So at an early age, I think about around age three. Eventually they stopped attending church "because of the shallowness of what we found," Steve Ray said. Now in the Septuagint as well as in the New Testament, adelphos is used to talk about people who have the same father but different mothers. All right. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Steve, we just heard from David Wright, the clock is ticking, those batteries could run out by early next week. Finally, Christies Pharisee argument for the Protestant Old Testament canon fails because its logic can be used to make a similar argument for a completely different Old Testament canon. The only son? Qualification, rates and payments will vary based on timing and individual circumstances. And I showed that when I cited Acts 21, 25, as well as other examples around the same time period. When Mary said, I know not man, in Luke 1:34, does this indicate a vow of perpetual virginity? The Story of Reality: Apologist Greg Koukl Discusses His New Book. Christie also claims Jesus reference to the Pharisee Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel (John 3:10) meant the Pharisees had unique teaching authority over other Jews. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. And I would say the same applies to Mary, were just having different views about what counts as divine revelation. Then Psalm 69:5 is applied non literally to Jesus and I would say Psalm 69:8 about mothers and brethren is applied non literally as well. Let me ask you this, was Jesus Christ free from sin? We see this in Psalm 69:25. Oh, youre on mute. [inaudible 01:22:12] Thats fine. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. Now I think Steve would probably say that there can be Protestants who believe things that Scriptures silent about, like infant baptism. Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? Apologetics for the Masses #366 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part III. Thanks for correcting me on that, Trent. In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian dogmas contradict what is taught in sacred scripture. But when the Bible talks about a firmament, that talks about an ancient, incorrect view of the heavens. Jesus tells the apostles and Matthew 28:20, Observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always to the close of the age. Even though Jesus will be with the apostles even after the present age comes to an end. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. As I mentioned in my book, the case for Catholicism Pauls letter to the Thessalonians, he talks about the force restraining the man of lawlessness. He mentioned about the Septuagint. Lastly, Psalm 69:8 is a messianic verse, I have become estranged from my brothers and an alien to my mothers sons. Because verse nine begins with for, which is a conjunction, meaning because, since, or therefore, indicating that the same Messiah who would experience zeal for your house in verse nine is also the same Messiah whose mother would have other children in verse eight, which prophesied Jesus younger half brothers not believing in him in John 7:3-5 and dishonoring him in Mark 6:3-4, which occurred earlier in Mark 3:20-21 when they accused Jesus of being out of his senses, just as the future King David rebuked his oldest brother. But the immaculate conception was declared 15 years or so before that. And thats why I went [inaudible 01:47:13] and why I argued, how is it used specifically in the New Testament? And so if it doesnt contradict scripture, then it should be an issue between Catholics and Protestants of secondary importance, much like how people disagree about infant baptism. Now Steve said that Matthew 1:25, and others have said this, based off the doctoral work of Eric [Svenson 00:26:02], that the Greek construction [foreign language 00:26:06] in this verse always demands a reversal of condition. Though, I think that is a salvation issue actually. Gary Habermas: The Minimal Facts Approach To The Resurrection (June, 2013) Video Link . Steve, you are going to be beginning with 15 minutes. Book now for free with CMG Booking. Just today, Hallow uploaded my Lo-Fi music to their app. So I agree with that. So were not talking about translations of the Bible. Since he is the uncreated sinless deity conceived by the holy spirit. Okay. But that is simply not the case. Christie then nailed a 46-yard field goal in overtime, giving the Bills their third victory of the season. Landlord. Campbell states that when it comes to Josephus claims about a universal Hebrew canon, as well as an entire manuscript tradition that had never been altered, Josephuss rhetoric has run ahead of reality. In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. And there, we would just debate about whether sacred tradition is a plausible source of divine revelation. She is not mentioning sin in any case. Jesus became sin, thats why he died. First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. Well, it uses the Greek word for brother. As I said before, thats not what were debating today. Even Trent has argued that the word does not mean to be immaculately conceived. Mary doesnt take the place of Christ. What about the deuterocanonical books of Scripture written in the 400 years before Christs birth? So I would definitely encourage people who are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary more. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. Even if Mary were speaking of salvation from sin, she may be speaking about God, preventing her from sinning and saving her in that way, like we might say how a doctor saved someone from a disease by vaccinating them, rather than by giving them a pill to cure them after the infection. In his study of Josephus and the Hebrew canon, Jonathan Campbell points out that the roughly contemporaneous text of 4 Ezra assumes the existence of ninety-four Jewish scriptures. Im surprised that you would pick Aquinas since he did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. Trent, did you want to-. Im a little disturbed about the comment about anything in Scripture being in error, because if we cannot trust that when it says about Jesus being our savior and rising from the dead. And yeah, I would just encourage others, Ive always said this, I dont see debates as a way to end an issue. Its nice to be able to go through all of these scripture passages. You answer that and then Ill ask Steve the next question. So lets just stick to scripture. And the same is true for Mary. Were going to move into a time of closing statements. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. So Steve would probably say that, Well, Jesus has sins, but there our sins, not his sins. Okay. So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. My first book is about not really of us, why do children of Christian parents abandon the faith? Why would that be the case? So as far as I know, I dont know offhand but that doesnt mean that its not being used. A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. So the protestant reformers like Luther and Zwingly, did they believe Mary was a perpetual Virgin and were they committed to Sola scriptura? But Mary only had a human nature and a sinful nature. He is also a Sales Associate with Charles Rutenberg Realty Inc., Florida, working with his wife, Realtor Kelly Christie. Be sure to check out Steve's speech at Wyohackathon.io it was a very interesting talk about the history of money. He says, Steve. Just like that Scripture includes things within it that are not necessarily scientifically accurate, scriptures without error. Pauls letters were occasional, and the scriptural texts that he cited and used were determined largely by the circumstances in which he was writing. I say this by way of concession, not of command. How do you understand Luke 1:28s title for Mary as full of grace in the Greek, literally meaning something like having been made completely full in regards to the immaculate conception? But when we look at something like Strongs for example, are you aware that Strongs defines adelphos and adelphe the same way? And hes not. But since it allows for Mary to have died, then it is much of a partial contradiction to scripture as the dogma of Jehovahs Witnesses of Jesus being the son of God and Michael. Yeah, sure. They were committed to Sola scriptura but we also have to remember that even though they were formers, they were also Roman Catholics and their issue with Romans was not about Marian dogmas, it was about the authority of scripture over the authority of the church. Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. Give me a second here. Just for fun, I mean, I would probably enjoy listening to Ignatius. He writes, As a Pharisee, the apostle Paul would have understood the Law and the Prophets to refer to only those writings found in Protestant Old Testaments today. But this argument fails for the following reasons. And so in seeing these Marian dogmas that they dont contradict Scripture, we can move forward in our understanding of authority to see what the church Christ established really has taught and given to us for salvation. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " On the one hand he could show the Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas regarding Mary as an individual. Steve Christie Co-founder at Provizio; Accident Prevention Technology Belfast Metropolitan Area Proviz.io, +2 more Queen's University Belfast Steve Christie Advisor - Halliburton Consulting. All right. And this was a dogmatic constitution of the church by Pope Paul VI. In 2015 Christie was named Executive Director of Sports at Mastermind Lounge, LLC. Good to hear from you again. Not Really Of Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Abandon the Faith? Sean McDowell, Ph.D. is a professor of Christian Apologetics at Biola University, a best-selling author of over 18 books, an internationally recognized speaker, and a part-time high school teacher. So theres nothing in scripture that contradicts that. And then Steve, because Steve, I can tell that youve really wrestled with what Catholicism teaches. Hebrews 11:35 describes a group of people in the Old Testament period who were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they may rise again to a better life. The only record of this is found in 2 Maccabees 7, which describes brothers who accept torture at the hands of the Seleucids instead of eating pork and violating Jewish law. January 07, 1964. This passage also contradicts the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary since Jesus mother was with Jesus brothers in verses 20 to 21, when they accused him of being out of his senses. Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. 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